February 21, 2009

Wonders DO never cease!

In my recent entry Will wonders ever cease? I wrote:
After we are writing our backside off for six or seven years now, starting long before this blog was created, about the disgusting hypocrisy in Germany when it comes to antisemitism and our "special relationship with Israel" (in fact, this entire blog is about it) the Jerusalem Post has twigged as well. Last Sunday that was.
The comments I received from Bruce Church in reply to that entry merit their own one, so here they are:
I'm American and I've read your blog religiously for the last two years, it seems, and even checked it during the few months you weren't blogging.

I suspected that there was more antisemitism over there than meets the eye, first because I know its worst manifestations are outlawed in Europe, driving it underground, and second, because I live among German-Americans, and they are still surprisingly antisemitic. They brought it from the Old Country.
And:
...the recent generations of German Lutheran and Catholic immigrants have ruined their respective American churches with antisemitism, and even pro-Nazi sympathies. Their attitudes were not diluted by mixing with Anglos.

The recent immigrants were products of the superior (uber) German educational system with its latest liberal scholarship, and they knew Deutsch better than German-Americans who had been in the country a while. So in the age before IQ testing and standardized merit tests, they were, often undeservedly, deemed to be very smart and educated. So they and their children often got tenure rather easily, and went straight to the top of their church hierarchies, often going back to Germany to obtain their doctoral degrees first--at church expense, of course. (There weren't many church-related universities and seminaries that gave out doctrinal degrees in the United States before WWII.)

When you see the surveys of whose pro-Israel in America, the 9% who are pro-Palestinian and the 30% who are undecided are mostly Catholics and Lutherans, many of German extraction. It's the Evangelicals who are pro-Israel, and if you search on their names here, you'll find that the Dobsons, Moodys, Falwells, Darbys, etc., are nearly all from Scotland or England, not Germany:
http://www.nationaltrustnames.org.uk/default.aspx

The Evangelicals are more pro-Israel because since the 1700s or so, they've been saying that the Jews would be saved before the End, and they even were pro-Zionists before the Jews were. Also, the last hundred years they've dabbled in Pre-millennialism which, in some formulations, is pro-Jewish. Meanwhile, Lutherans, Catholics and the Continental Reformed have stuck with Amillennialism, which doesn't even mention the Jews.

If you look at the main English-speaking Holocaust Revisionist organization, IHR, outside of the infamous Englishman David Irving, chances are many such "scholars" are German-Americans whose families immigrated after WWI. See one list here:
Institute for Historical Review Bios
http://www.ihr.org/other/authorbios.html

Of course, most German-Americans are intermarried, with the father's side being, say, 6th generation G-As, and the mother's side being 4th, and sometimes one has Danish or English ancestry, too, so most people don't ask about ancestry in America, since it's too hard to keep track of anyway except for one's own ancestry. However, when it comes to antisemitism and Holocaust Minimization, that's an excellent question that more should be asking! We should ask: Was it your parents or grand parents that came from Germany?

Let me highlight two German-Americans who would issue the standard denial about being antisemitic, of course, but nevertheless have nothing fond to say of Jews or of Israel's existence:

1) Michael Hoffmann just came out with a book on the Jews in 2008, and he's definitely German-American, but I don't know what generation:

A Study of the Anti-Biblical Religion of Racism, Self-Worship, Superstition and Deceit."
http://www.rense.com/general84/mhof.htm

2) Herman Otten is an Octagenarian Lutheran pastor who is a second-generation German-American, whose parents came over after WWI. He often prints up a 24 and 28-page broadsheet newspaper full of historical revisionism and sends it to a couple thousand Lutheran pastor subscribers. Here's his bio:

Growing Up in New York City During World War II
http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v09/v09p321_Otten.html

Excerpt: The October, 1988 IHR Newsletter announcing this conference referred to me as a "German-American." My parents came to this country from Germany as teen-agers. However, ancestors on both my mother's and father's side came to Germany from Sweden. I mention this because some have said I am a neo-Nazi, out to defend Germany because of my background.
Bruce's information is of terrific importance to me. I have been called a self-hating German and worse by Americans who fail to see that it is impossible for a decent and honest German to muster up the same ordinary, positive, wholehearted, jolly-hockeysticks sort of patriotism Americans can enjoy. I care for my country or I wouldn't be such a relentless critic and I am ONE OF THEM. Do people think it is EASY to be German? The fact that decent, well-meaning Americans throw a free "He was a patriot" after every dead German Nazi towards hell drives me up the wall because it's such an abomination in the face of the truth. However, different from what some may think, I never wished to be anything else but German and I guess that makes me a Nazi now in the eyes of others. Fine!

There is more to come because my discussion with Bruce is still going on.



This entry is topical as well!

6 comments:

Terry Morris said...

Interesting, Nora. I personally tend to shy away from criticizing someone else's country because 1) I generally don't know that much about it and its people, and 2) because I tend to be one of those "I can talk bad about my people, but you can't" kinds of personalities, and I imagine others are that way too, though maybe not to the extent that I am.

But you're right I think. Your criticism's of Germans as well as your criticisms of women, as both a woman and a German, show that you have a love, not a hatred, for both. Plus, right's right, and wrong's wrong, as my dad is so fond of saying.

I'm an Okie and an American with deep roots in both, and I can be pretty critical of both my state and my country at times. Also, I have a female German friend named Ursella (sp?) who lives near me and who I think a lot of. But I don't think, in all our conversations on any number of sujects, that the Jews have ever come up. I might be in for a shock if the subject is ever raised between us.

Moshea bat Abraham said...

Americans who fail to see that it is impossible for a decent and honest German to muster up the same ordinary, positive, wholehearted, jolly-hockeysticks sort of patriotism Americans can enjoy.

I understand that, but you already know that I am the choir here.

A few months ago, an acquaintance of mine who is not Jewish made a lame "joke" which conflated Germans with Nazis (I shall not insult you by relating it). At least he had the grace to be embarrassed when I didn't laugh at it; it wasn't funny, besides being tasteless.

But what interested me was realizing that I was offended first on behalf of my German friends; thanks to the internet, I have many of them. I know this guy was making that "joke" because I am Jewish, but I was thinking of my German friends. And of Klaus von dem Eberbach.

Moshea bat Abraham said...

This blog post mentions another drama queen, this one in Switzerland, who engraved "Nazi" symbols on herself. You're the one who brought this phenomena to my attention. I dread the day it catches on here.

The_Editrix said...

"But you're right I think. Your criticism's of Germans as well as your criticisms of women, as both a woman and a German, show that you have a love, not a hatred, for both."

Thank you Terry! I can not really say how much that means to me. I, too, think that, as the German saying goes, sweeping in front of one's own door, comes first. I could say a lot about the shortcomings of men, but that would be like shooting sitting ducks. I DO criticize America and the Americans, but almost exclusively in the field of feminism and when Americans are criticizing (or sanctifying) my country or my fellow Germans without acquiring the necessary information first.

Yes, you might be in for a disappointing surprise should you ever discuss Jews with Ursula (that would be the German spelling, it means she-bear, by the way). But then, you may be not. Some people have managed to escape the hive mind.

The_Editrix said...

"But what interested me was realizing that I was offended first on behalf of my German friends; thanks to the internet, I have many of them. I know this guy was making that "joke" because I am Jewish, but I was thinking of my German friends. And of Klaus von dem Eberbach."

O my, yes, that is lame. I understand any resentment towards anything German from a Jew, in fact, I am always amazed about how tolerant those American Jews are who came to The States before 1933. But trying to suck up to a Jewish audience by cracking jokes about Germans is lame at least, banalizing history at worst.

About the drama queen: How perfectly awful. I don't think that will become popular in America soon, however, because it is closely related to the European complicity in WWII and the Holocaust. Left=Anti-Nazi=Good, Right=Nazi=Bad. It's as simple as that. It won't work over at your end and I have a hunch it won't work in the few European countries that were not German accessories during WWII either. Denmark comes to mind.

fpb said...

About American anti-Semites, E.Michael Jones does not sound German to me. Maybe I am wrong and he has recent German ancestry. But at any rate I have to say - much though it annoys me - that he is on another level, has many really interesting things to say, and while his Jew-bashing is certainly incurable, it is at least his own rather than the usual servile mutual repetition one meets in such circles. In a sense, I would be happier if he were a moron; a man of his education and frequently striking ideas has no business dealing with the poison of idiots and illiterates.
Thou art a traitor and a recreant,
Too good to be so, and too bad to live,
Since the most clear and crystal is the sky,
The uglier seem the clouds that in it fly.


And I certainly understand your atttude to ignorant Americans mouthing off on Germany. I love my country, but I know her people's faults better than anyone; and when some self-satisfied American who has seen three video clips on TV about Italy, total, presumes to have an opinion - ANY opinion - about things s/he know nothing of, then you had better stay clear, because I charge! It is just a sub-case of every kind of intellectual honesty: do not open your mouth on things you don't know.