Apology to America or: God Help Old Europe

I have come across (and partly caused) such an utterly moronic, rock-hard dumb discussion at the Brussels Journal, that I briefly considered to throw them off my blogroll just for their readership. (Not that they'd notice it.) But to what avail? I have come to see, too, that the only way to manage a really serious political blog is the way Lawrence Auster does it at VFR, cumbersome as it may be.

I can not (repeat: NOT!) imagine an exchange quite that moronic at any American serious political website, however much I may have deplored American shortcomings in the past. I am trying to pinpoint what the basic difference is. It is not, I am sure, to be found on any intellectual or educational level. Yes, the latter is pretty low in the specific exchange here, but then, I have seen Americans, and even with impressive degrees, for that, so uninformed and intellectually dishonest (or plain dumb) that it made me weep. No, the difference is that Americans simply have a conscience, an ethical compass, which is lacking in most Europeans. If that is true (and I think it is) it explains a lot of things we are seeing today, good and bad. And to go back to the topic at hand, I can hardly imagine any average, straightforward American, arguing that "everybody was a Nazi anyway and one somehow had to survive [which is, by the way, contradictory] so that topic is a non-starter anyway."

The initial entry is interesting, but only moderately so. I think it becomes apparent that my wrath was tickled when a commenter stated, naming names, that there had been -- and thrived -- many former Nazis in a certain German political party, a (factually true) information that was dismissed as a "conspiracy theory". Then it goes from absurd to grotesque.

Interesting Times in Bavaria

From the desk of Elaib Harvey on Fri, 2009-02-27 14:48

The German – well OK, Bavarian – centre right party is in all sorts of trouble right now. They currently have 9 sitting Members of the European Parliament (MEPs), including some big hitters in the Parliament like Inigo Friedrich. Due to a change in the way that the European Parliament election’s are being held in Germany, they stand to lose all 9, despite still picking up over 40% in their home, and Germany’s most populous Land, Bavaria. This time they have to get over 5% of the whole of Germany’s vote.

Of course this means that their sister (and have you ever seen sisters together, it can get pretty brutal at times) party, the CDU, will be the only one holding the flame of Christian Democracy in Germany, and they quite like that.

Add to that the spectre of Libertas Germany standing possibly with Count von Stauffenberg (former CSU federal MP – and a chap with a resonant name) at top of the list and their is massive pressure on the old party of Bavaria.

So what do they do? First, Edmund Stoiber suggests that he will ride to the flailing party’s rescue by sitting at the top of their Euro list. Now, we hear that current party leader, Horst Seehofer has been talking referenda. No not on the Lisbon Treaty – though that would cook Libertas’s goose in the Land – but over Turkish entry into the European Union.

Now everybody knows that Chancellor Merkel and the CSU see eye to eye on their not wanting Turkey through the portals of the Berlaymont (Germany would lose its position of country with most weight – and would have to pay for the privilege), but the word referendum is a dangerous one in German politics. Particularly in the light of the deliberations of the Constitutional Court.

Interesting times, indeed, in Bavaria.

Here are the ensuing comments. To grasp the gist you have to read them chronologically from the bottom to the top:

Homework

Submitted by The_Editrix on Thu, 2009-03-05 14:21.

"And I find that statement somewhat surprising coming from someone who has been a BJ member for the past 2 years 44 weeks but let's not quibble about that."

Oh yes, lets! You obviously didn't bother to check how many (or rather how few) comments I delivered during that period of time. Oh yes! I lurked all that time breathlessly following your (plural) uneducated drivel to then suddenly pipe up, pretending I had never seen it.

Do you have to say anything about the CONTENT of my comment as well or are you really unable to perform a Google search, as you are obviously unable to klick on the "Track" button in a member's personal profile?

How to deal with one's past

Submitted by The_Editrix on Thu, 2009-03-05 14:15.

"Let me remind you that the majority in Germany were nazis and that Vichy France was nazi, also a majority in France. Mitterand, the later president was a Vichy member."

Yes and -- in the context of this discussion -- so?

"What exactly do you want these countries and their people to do? Commit suicide?"

I, as a German, will not tell other people what to do about and how to see their own past. There IS, however, a tiny wee little difference between Germany and the other European nations: Different from Germany, no WWII and no Holocaust went out from their countries. I do, however, react a tiny wee bit irritated if a foreigner, like you, tells me how *I* have to see OUR past.

"Those populations tried to survive under a dictatorship..."

I have to go back a long way to remember an equally callous statement of relativism and opportunism. And here I was, thinking that this is a conservative forum.

"... and I don't see any of our so called liberals today acting any different under a dictatorship, on the contrary they already accept the dictatorship of the Political Correct uni-thought."

Oh no! They are just trying to survive under a dictatorship, didn't you know?

"We already are admonished that free speech is dangerous and everybody on the left and in the Establishment applauds. That's how "Kristallnacht" started."

YOU, Sir, have NO IDEA how "Kristallnacht" started.

I will, however, throw in some private lesson in German history and sociology. Germans as a people, with a few precious exceptions thrown in, did NOT, as you put it "try to survive under a dictatorship". They gladly supported it, as Germans in the former GDR are still whining about the end of the second German dictatorship. And don't you dare telling me it ain't so because I am living among them for more than two years now. Germans can't live without a totalitarian concept. That is why we don't have anything that resembles even faintly a conservative political movement. WHAT we have are brown-painted Socialists, Sacred-Heart Socialists, green-over-brown-painted Socialists, Communists and a tiny, hapless "liberal" party that used to be a receptacle for old Nazis after '45 and which has ousted itself from serious politics by their self-consciously cultivated image of a "fun party" under its openly gay leader. The staple between all of them is the hatred of America and Jews, which the not-brown-painted ilk insist to call "anti-Zionism" because they are such despicable hypocrites. All of them have NOTHING in common with parties like Vlaams Belang, Partij voor de Vrijheid or BNP.

The support for even the worst Muslim thugs is based on that very affinity, the mutual totalitarian mindset. Wasn't Jörg Haider rubbing shoulders with Bubba Saddam? Didn't a contractor, who is a member of the brown-over-red painted party NPD, build the gigantic mosque in Duisburg-Marxsloh? Hey! It worked pretty well between Hitler and the Mufti already, so why not now?

"Liberalism", Sir, is the LAST THING that has anything to do with it.

That was all. You may quote me.

Clueless

Submitted by Atlanticist911 on Thu, 2009-03-05 13:54.

"I am unaware of any earlier argy-bargy between kappert and Atlanticist911 elswhere...".

And I find that statement somewhat surprising coming from someone who has been a BJ member for the past 2 years 44 weeks but let's not quibble about that.
And to the same person (or anybody else for that matter0 who would go on to conclude with the statement, " I don't want to be any part of it", my 'simpleminded' response is simple, DON'T!
However, should anybody decide that they WOULD like to be "apart of it", I [SERIOUSLY] recommend that they first do their homework with regard to kappert's previous (general) statements and positions of moral relativism before taking any further potshots at me.

PS Thanks, traveller..

@ The Editrix

Submitted by traveller on Thu, 2009-03-05 12:24.

The sparring of Atlanticist vs Kappert has ideological grounds from a long time ago.
Let me remind you that the majority in Germany were nazis and that Vichy France was nazi, also a majority in France. Mitterand, the later president was a Vichy member.
What exactly do you want these countries and their people to do? Commit suicide?
Those populations tried to survive under a dictatorship and I don't see any of our so called liberals today acting any different under a dictatorship, on the contrary they already accept the dictatorship of the Political Correct uni-thought. We already are admonished that free speech is dangerous and everybody on the left and in the Establishment applauds. That's how "Kristallnacht" started.

"Kappert, the Jerry Fletcher

Submitted by The_Editrix on Thu, 2009-03-05 11:58.

"Kappert, the Jerry Fletcher of the BJ, sees nazis everywhere. But even supposing that some of his conspiracy theories are true..."

I am unaware of any earlier argy-bargy between kappert and Atlanticist911 elsewhere and, frankly, I don't want any part in it, but to call what the former posted a "conspiracy theory" on the strength of that very comment, is... let me call it "simpleminded" to avoid any unnecessary bitingness. To say that the CSU (and the FDP and to a lesser extent the CDU) used to be a collecting pit for old Nazis post-WWII is simply the truth. I recommend that Atlanticist911 performs a Google search or two. It is not all that difficult and will prove kappert right.

@ 'Jerry' from the proud son of a British 'Tommy'

Submitted by Atlanticist911 on Wed, 2009-03-04 19:47.

NOT so. My own father spent 6 years of his life fighting those nazi bastards and losing his younger brother in the process so that, among other things, spineless, cloth-eared clowns like you might live to ridicule and gloat. But if I was "hopping around" as you claim, I would have had the perfect Master/ Mistress in you.

@atlanticist911

Submitted by kappert on Wed, 2009-03-04 18:56.

Sorry: Jerry Fletcher Hollywood, Watts, Hobsbawn, Hitchens, 'change the topic'? You are hopping around, trying to avoid the acknowledgement that the crimes of WWII are largely accepted by the post-war democracies (see post-war careers), simply because the nazi-ideology is a consequent line in the thought of protestant technocrats. The opposition of science and religions, so often discussed in this blog, lead (so far) ultimately to the übermensch-ideology, conceived by 'thinkers' overwhelmed by the progress of science. Still, many countries feel an instant superiority towards others, means, the mentioned ideology in still working in the minds.

'Watt' Conspiracy (4) : tribe and diatribe

Submitted by Atlanticist911 on Wed, 2009-03-04 17:30.

Without wishing to reduce my mini-debate with Kappert (XX ?) to one equating to something along the lines of 'Hobsbawn's Choice', with regard to the nazis vs commies, I believe most rational people would be prepared to listen and learn from a person who knows.

Example:
http://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk/2009/03/in-search-of-my-mi5-file-the-only-thing-i-have-in-common-with-professor-eric-hobsbawn.html

Why Start a War?

Submitted by Capodistrias on Wed, 2009-03-04 17:18.

Surely good friends can live happily ever after?
http://www.geocities.com/provost_stiener/Nazi_Soviet_Pact.jpg

@Kappert
Enlightenment sometimes requires a light bulb.

War Starts (2)

Submitted by Atlanticist911 on Wed, 2009-03-04 17:10.

Fellow BJ'ers will note: Not satisfied with avoiding offering any substantive responses to my questions on 'WATT', Kappert now wishes to change the topic of discussion to one concerning the chromosone Y. If there's a link here, I'm missing it!

war starts?

Submitted by kappert on Wed, 2009-03-04 16:53.

Wow, what a male you must be!!

'Watt' Conspiracy (3): At this particular moment in time...

Submitted by Atlanticist911 on Wed, 2009-03-04 16:41.

You are free to leave. Why not take advantage of this opportunity before the war starts? Remember the cowards war cry, "Better Fled than Dead".

Your comment is an

Submitted by kappert on Wed, 2009-03-04 16:24.

Your comment is an enlightenment. Putting on the same level nazis, commies, trotzkis, maoists (don't forget sindicalists, uuhaa) you very much aline in the 'general forgiveness' towards nazis. They were welcome, voted and adored and nothing tells us that this history will not repeat itself in this fractured tribal Europe, as slave labour, human traficking and ethnic cleansing stand high on the wishing list of some political entrepreneurs.

'Watt' Conspiracy (2)

Submitted by Atlanticist911 on Wed, 2009-03-04 16:13.

"It is a given fact that nazis reached up to decisive positions in Europe after WWII".

It is also a "given fact" that Communists, Trotskyites, (and to a far lesser degree) Maoists and their ilk achieved similar successes, but I don't see you complaining about that. Perhaps this should be considered by (Occidental/ accidental) taoists as the political 'yin' balancing out the political 'yang'. Then again, maybe not.

NB That was not a question it was a statement, but you are still free to pass comment. (In case you hadn't noticed).

re: (the) 'Watt ' Conspiracy

Submitted by Atlanticist911 on Wed, 2009-03-04 15:56.

I'm sorry, I must have missed the part where you answer one of my questions before I am expected to answer one of yours.

http://ewanwatt.blogspot.com/2008/10/conspiracy-theories-on-haider.html

what conspiracy

Submitted by kappert on Wed, 2009-03-04 15:40.

It has nothing to do with conspiracy. It is a given fact that nazis reached up to decisive positions in Europe after WWII. Kiesinger was German chancellor, Waldheim Austrian president and UNO chairman, von Braun catapulted Americans to the moon, Quandt and Krupp continue to be the richest families in Germany - they are forgiven a long time ago! Where do you detect conspiracies?

careers (2) : aka When Worlds Collide

Submitted by Atlanticist911 on Wed, 2009-03-04 14:17.

Kappert, the Jerry Fletcher of the BJ, sees nazis everywhere. But even supposing that some of his conspiracy theories are true, he's never prepared to provide serious answers to valid questions, like how would HE deal with the problem the original 'Jerry' faced, should said nazis ever decide to come after him?

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Conspiracy_Theory

careers

Submitted by kappert on Wed, 2009-03-04 13:15.

Former Nazi-Parteimitglieder making career in the CSU:
Walter Becher, Hermann Höcherl, Friedrich Kempfler, Franz Krapf, Franz Nüßlein, Alfred Seidl, Siegfried Zoglmann: all these Nazis were Deputies, Diplomats or at least MdB for the Federal Republic of Germany. Some got highest positions at NATO.
(ps: the leader of Reiter-SS and NSKK later married the Dutch princess Juliana, so not only in both Germanys the Nazies proceed their career!)

Bavaria is the biggest Bundesland by area, not by population...

Submitted by The_Editrix on Tue, 2009-03-03 22:41.

...and the CSU is hardly a centre right party by any international standard. They are Sacré-Cœur Socialists, centre, at best.

Good try and I wish them well, but I am afraid any political effort with "libertas" in its name will, in Germany, suffer the fate of a stillborn child. Germans just don't understand the concept.

Germany's most populous land

Submitted by heplev on Sat, 2009-02-28 16:19.

...still is Northrine-Westphalia! :)
Look here http://www.planet-schule.de/wissenspool/bg0051/kinder_europas/wissen_deutschland/die_bundeslaender.html (just run the mouse over the map)

The discussion goes on there, but I had my daily dose of asininity already. Isn't it wonderful that I can't go out much with my footsore young dog for the time being? I bet the old BJ didn't have such a nice little brouhaha in their comment section in years, and nobody has accused me of being an intellectual (nor even an "intellectual") ever before.