Saturday, May 20, 2006Comments:
A Very Practical and Attractive Religion for Soldiers
The recent renaissance of the the proud German tradition of collaborating with murderous Palestinian Arab scum is deserving of further attention. The following is from a previous entry, namely Child Molesters Comparing Notes. It's too good (immodest I'm not!) to be doomed to future insignificance in the blog bilges, so I've taken and added a bit to it.Hadj Amin el Husseini, with Brit assistance self-appointed Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, mass murderer of Jews, on Hitler's payroll since 1937, accomplice of Hitler in the Holocaust, honoured guest in Berlin during WWII (all expenses, hookers included, paid), founder of the SS Handzar division, and post-war co-founder and President of the Arab League.
It is a widely shared consensus, that the existence of the state of Israel with her ethnic European population is the cause for the strife in the Middle East. So it may be a surprise to some that as early as 1933 Nazi political groups started to rise their ugly heads throughout the Arab world, for example Young Egypt, led by Muslim Brotherhood member Gamal Abdel Nasser, later Egyptian President. Young Egypt’s political slogan "One Folk, One Party, One Leader" is a direct translation from the German.
Who was the driving force behind this movement?
Contrary to the current politically correct version that the previously innocent and Jew-loving Arabs "learned" antisemitism from the Germans, there is sufficient proof even to justifiedly speculate whether to some extent the history of the European Jews would have taken not quite a disastrous course without Amin el Husseini, who later added "Hadj" to his name, and whose creepy shadow of death is still looming today.
He was born 1893 in Jerusalem under Ottoman rule. 1914-1917 he got his first taste of "jihad" and must have found it addictive. As an officer of the Ottoman Empire in Smyrna during the Armenian genocide, he actively participated in the slaughtering of one and a half million Christians by the Ottoman Army and it ought to be remembered that allegiance to the idea of the Ottoman Empire and a vision of Islamic world take-over was spine-chillingly echoed by Osama Bin Laden in his post-September 11th declaration.
But back to British Mandate Palestine, where Husseini is able to apply the lessons he had learned, lessons of genocide and the establishment of a Pan-Islamic empire, from which Jews and Christians are excluded. He stirs up riots in Palestine through the Twenties and Thirties, mainly, but not exclusively, targeted at Jews, including the massacre of the Hebron Jews on 23 and 24 August 1929.
The survivors are forced to flee Hebron, their property is seized by Arab residents and occupied until after the Six Day War 1967. The Hebron Jewish community was over 2,000 years old. This and other massacres may serve as both, proof for the fact that the Jewish-Arab relationships were, different from what some are fond of maintaining, less than well already before the foundation of the State of Israel and that, different from what others say, the Arabs did not learn genocidal antisemitism from the Nazis. But I digress.
Muslims who dare to protest against Hadj Amin's reign of terror are murdered as well, who, in 1931, becomes founder of the World Islamic Congress and starts to build his own strong political base.
1937 Hadj Amin el Husseini visits the German Consul in Jerusalem. He meets among others Adolf Eichmann (whose sense for "Aryan" company must have been a wee bit selective) to discuss "the Jewish question". From then on, Husseini will receive financial and military aid from Nazi Germany. He spends the war safe and sound in Germany, all expenses paid by the Foreign Office (Auswärtiges Amt).Active collaboration with top-ranking Nazis starts in 1941. Reportedly, Hitler would have been content with deporting the Jews to Palestine, which Husseini perceives as a threat to his powerbase and so he pushes successfully for the extermination of the European Jews. The same year, Husseini is made chief architect of the Nazi occupation in Bosnia. The Serbian-Cyrillic alphabet is banned, Orthodox Serbs forced to wear a blue, Jewish Serbs a yellow armband.
While in Bosnia, Amin Al-Husseini takes the title "Protector of Islam". 100,000 (One hundred thousand!) Bosnian Muslims join the Nazi ranks. They are seeking the approval of the Germans for establishing an autonomous protectorate for Bosnian Muslims.
Amin Al-Husseini approves the Pejani Plan calling for the extermination of the Serbian population, something that even Nazi Germany refuses to implement.
Bosnian ethnic cleansing under Amin al Husseini:
- Orthodox Christian Serbs: 200,000 killed
- Gypsies: more than 40,000 killed
- Jewish Bosnians: 22,000 killed.
Husseini’s legacy of hatred is a major factor in today’s Bosnia/Herzegovina campaign against the Serbs.
1942, Husseini intervenes personally with the Nazi High Command to refuse an offer by the Red Cross to exchange 10,000 Jewish children for German prisoners of war. The offer is refused and the children die in the gas chambers.1943, he creates the Handzar Division of Muslim Soldiers in Bosnia, which is, with 26,000 soldiers, to become the largest division of the Third Reich military and participates actively in the genocide of the Serbians, Gipsies and Jews in Bosnia. The Muslim soldiers pledge allegiance to Nazi regime in an official statement drawn up by Heinrich Himmler. During the same year, Husseini is made "Prime Minister" of a Pan-Arab Government created by the Nazi regime. His "headquarters" are in Berlin. He plans to put up a concentration camp in Nablus to realise the "final solution" in Palestine as an extension of Hitler’s plan.
Husseini and Himmler grow on each other. At his insistence, the "Mufti" is even given a private tour of Auschwitz death camp by Himmler.Heinrich Himmler, obviously another Nazi with rather selective "Aryan" tastes, informed Nazi chief propagandist Josef Goebbels: "[I] have nothing against Islam because it educates the men in this division for me and promises them heaven if they fight and are killed in action. A very practical and attractive religion for soldiers."
On August 6, 1943, Himmler writes the following letter to his man in the NDH, SS Gruppenführer und Generalleutnant der Polizei Konstantin Kammerhofer and to Artur Phleps, commander of the 5th SS Mountain Corps:
"All Moslem members of the Waffen SS and police are to be afforded the undeniable right of their religious demands never to touch pork, pork sausages nor to drink alcohol...I hold all commanders...and other SS officers, responsible for the most scrupulous and loyal respect for this privilege especially granted to the Muslims. They have answered the call of the Moslem chiefs and have come to us out of hatred for the common Jewish-Anglo-Bolshevik enemy and through respect and fidelity for he who they respect above all, the Fuehrer, Adolf Hitler... There will no longer be the least discussion about the special rights afforded to the Moslems in these circles.
Heil Hitler
(signed) H. Himmler"It is Himmler, too, who establishes and funds the "Islamische Zentralinstitut" in Dresden, with Husseini as head. The purpose is to create a generation of Muslim leaders that would continue to use Islam as a carrier for Nazi ideology into the 21st century.
On March 1, 1944, Husseini addresses from Berlin the Muslim SS units: "Kill the Jews wherever you find them. This pleases God, history and religion. This saves your honour. God is with you."
1944, he becomes one of the founders of the Arab League. Its goal is to reinforce Pan-Islamic unity. Founding members are Egypt, Iraq, Jordan, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Syria and Yemen. Husseini is appointed in absentia President of Fourth Higher Committee.
1946, the British grant Husseini amnesty to weaken the Jewish presence in Mandate Palestine. He returns to Palestine.
1946, Hadj Amin is appointed leader of the Muslim Brotherhood in Jerusalem. Wahhabist Islam becomes the perfect carrier for Husseini’s policy of ethnic cleansing. He uses recently acquired Nazi methods to realise his vision of an Arab World free of Jews ("judenfrei"). Yugoslavia's request of extradition of Husseini from Egypt for War Crimes and Crimes against Humanity is refused by the Egyptian government.Egyptian(!)-born Yasser Arafat, later to become a "Palestinian" icon, meets Husseini at age 17 and starts then working for him. Hadj Amin el Husseini is allegedly a great-uncle of Arafat, whose real name is Mohammed Abder Rauf Arafat Al-Kudwa Al-Husseini. Arafat reportedly changed his name to disguise his nationality or his connection to Husseini or both, although why he should disguise family ties with a Pan-Arab icon like Hadj Amin I can't quite fathom. This, too, destroys the myth that the "Palestinian" fight against the "Israeli occupation is a political, secular struggle and not a part of global Islamic jihad.
Post-WWII, Husseini is directly involved in providing a safe haven to ex-Nazis in Arab countries and the main connection with Francois Genoud, Swiss banker of the Third Reich, who finances the ODESSA network with money stolen from European Jews. Genoud, visits Husseini several times in Beirut and sponsors Arab Nationalism with Nazi money. In Cairo and Tangiers, Genoud sets up an import-export company called Arabo-Afrika, as a cover for an anti-Jewish and later anti-Israeli propaganda organisation.Genoud sets up, too, Swiss bank accounts for the North African liberation armies of Morocco, Tunisia and Algeria. Together with Syria, he sets up the Arab Commercial Bank in Geneva. 1962, he becomes director of the Arab People’s Bank in Algeria.
Putting up a picture of the Arab issue of "Mein Kampf" cost a German blogger recently his contract with his (German) ISP. Showing something like that is considered "hatespeak" by German law, while conveniently serving the purpose of keeping up a smokescreen preventing knowledge of German-Arab collaboration spreading too far.
1962, Hadj Amin el Husseini becomes president of his brainchild, the World Islamic Congress.Husseini dies in Syria in 1974 at the biblical age of 81. Life is rarely fair.
His legacy of a worldwide war of Islamic conquest, of terror and eliminatory hatred of Jews continues to this day. Yasser Arafat (on the right) pays hommage to his mentor at the latter's funeral.
For further reference regarding Middle Eastern history of this specific period go to:
Tell The Children The Truth, La bibliothèque proche-orientale or do a simple Google search, as the sources are too numerous to mention here.
For Balkan history go to:
Kosovo and the Holocaust: Falsifying History
ISLAM UNDER THE SWASTIKA: The Grand Mufti and the Nazi Protectorate of Bosnia-Hercegovina, 1941-1945
both by Carl Savich.For further information on how easily and gladly Germans are turned into useful idiots for the cause of Islam and specifically Palestinian Arab terror read my previous blog entries Barking up the Wrong Tree as an Art Form, Cacophony and Idealists Working together for a Higher Order.
I will add any further comments should there be any.
- Pastorius said...
Editrix,
You said: "The 30-year-war was about religion and the many Austro-prussian wars were about military, political and economic predominance within the German sphere. None of them had been eliminatory and had nothing whatsoever to do with race or "tribes"."
I say; you misunderstood me, if you thought I was saying Germany's history was all about the instinctual war for tribe.
I was not saying that.
It is very apparent from Germany's productivity and creativity that Germany is a nation of ideas, for the most part.
That is to be celebrated.
That was my point.- Pastorius said...
Editrix,
You said: "Germany was never any more bigoted or racist than any other country, probably even less so. Not even the Nazis followed an eliminatory policy regarding the few black German citizens who owed their existence to the minor German efforts at colonialism. Even the "Rhineland bastards" were "just" sterilized. Jesse Owens was well received at the Olympic Games 1936 by the German hosts and the lie that Hitler refused to shake his hand was … well, a politically correct lie.
I have always said that. I have said, too, that antisemitism is a phenomenon totally different from racism. What caused (and still causes) that deeply-rooted eliminatory German antisemitism (Yes Epa, Goldhagen was right!) is a different question. But there IS NO German "instinct to hunt down and kill all those who are not of the tribe"."
I say; I believe you, cuz what you say corresponds with what little I know of German history.
By the way, careful that you don't fall into the trap that non-Americans commonly fall into when speaking to Americans. And that is this;
Non-Americans commonly believe that we Americans ought to know about and understand all your micro-conflicts and alliances.
We ought not understand those things anymore than a German would be expected to understand the difference between Oregon and Virginia.
Do you know the difference between Oregon and Virginia? Do you know what the people are like in those vastly different areas of the United States?
I doubt it.
I remember a girlfriend of mine telling me that when she was in Paris she bought some clothes from a shop called "Kentuckey" which had a logo designed on a California license plate.
That tells you all you need to know about European understanding of America.
And, I don't blame europeans for not understanding America."We ought not understand those things anymore than a German would be expected to understand the difference between Oregon and Virginia."
Fair enough but can we agree, for the purpose of a philosophical workaround, a kind of mental auxiliary construction so to say, that you ought to know US just a theoretical tiny amount better than we understand you because WE have been there first as a kind of platform to which YOU are the upgraded follow-up model?
And for the purpose of this Hun being right, of course... ;-)
"We ought not understand those things anymore than a German would be expected to understand the difference between Oregon and Virginia."
Fair enough but can we agree, for the purpose of a philosophical workaround, a kind of mental auxiliary construction so to say, that you ought to know US just a theoretical tiny amount better than we understand you because WE have been there first as a kind of platform to which YOU are the upgraded follow-up model?
And for the purpose of this Hun being right, of course... ;-)- Pastorius said...
Makes sense to me, especially the part about the Hun being right.
:)
Anyway, it would seem that you are arguing that a lot of Germany's history was shaped by geological destiny (not having defensible borders), instead of tribalism.
Ok. I can't say that I truly understand what you're talking about.
There were many different types of people in the area we call Germany. What did they fight over, if it was not some sort of Tribal issue. Are you telling me their conflict with each other was more cultural and therefore ideological?
Or, are you arguing that there is something else to fight over other than ideas or Tribal allegiance.What about economics?
You know, every German hates the German from the next village and every German tribe hates the neighbouring tribe. For example, the Bavarians hate the Austrians and where I come from (Westphalia) we hate the Rhinelanders and the Dutch. Now I am living in the South of Saxony, I hate the Czechs. I guess in the extreme North they hate the Danes.
As a sidenote: Funny enough, the Communists have, so it seems, wiped out any tribal identity and thus any tribal-based animosity, but I am somehow under the impression that the people are neither happier nor more tolerant here.
However, I don't think that there have been any wars between the German tribes based on tribal identity. Much has been said about the personal dislike between the Prussian icon Friedrich II (The Great) and Maria Theresia of Austria. But did Friedrich fight the Austrians because he didn't like their accent? Their (compared to Prussian circumstances) sissyfied lifestyle? I don't even believe it was a fight for the relative Prussian liberty. It was a struggle for political, and thus economical, dominance.- Pastorius said...
Good point. Economics. I guess I am so opposed to the idea of Economic Determinism that I dismiss it out of hand. I don't even consider it, though that is not reasonable.
I would be inclined to define myself by saying that it isn't money/resources that we are fighting over so much as it is what to do with them.
And, that is the realm of ideas.
But, I do recognize that Economic factors are important in conflicts and allegiances.
Excellent, Editrix. Thanks very much. And for the other post even further up.
Monday, June 08, 2009 7:51:00 PM
You can't know how grateful I am that you put up posts in the same spirit, MR! It makes me look somwhat more credible and less obsessed and self-hating and it can't be said too often.
Monday, June 08, 2009 7:59:00 PM
This is serious stuff that affects it all to this day.
I just grouped our 3 posts together, bumped Carlos' up 1 since it was the only one affected by the move and I didn't want to shove it that far down.
We need to get more posts like these.
Monday, June 08, 2009 8:03:00 PM
See, I'm very reluctant to use the word Nazi to describe just plain ignorant people, both for personal and historical reasons, don't want to cheapen the word.
But where jihadis and their Bosses are concerned, I have no problem making the comparison, and point to stuff like this to back it up.
Pasto and Epa would agree with that as well, as would most of the contributors here I think.
Monday, June 08, 2009 8:07:00 PM
Anyone that has suffered or has family that had suffered under the Nazis should know to use that moniker in very extreme and select situations. The Nazis were the epitome and personification of evil and there are very few people that could match them in their psychopathic brutality.
Monday, June 08, 2009 8:22:00 PM
Total - Exactly, and exactly why I rarely use the word except in historic context.
Monday, June 08, 2009 8:54:00 PM
"See, I'm very reluctant to use the word Nazi to describe just plain ignorant people, both for personal and historical reasons, don't want to cheapen the word."
I agree. I have the problem with Americans that they either use it too liberally (like Charles Johnson of LGF) or that they throw a hearty "He was a patriot" after every dead Nazi towards hell, as it happened, for example, with VDare and Jörg Haider. If you go to the middle sidebar of my blog, there are two items, "The Pro-Köln-Dustup" and "More Things Americans Don't Seem to Twig" where I have vented my frustration. Basically, who rubs shoulders with Islamic despots, like Haider with Saddam, has lost any claim to a "conservative" or "patriotic" world view. It is THE litmus-test.
Monday, June 08, 2009 9:23:00 PM
"I have the problem with Americans WHO either use it too liberally...", of course!
Monday, June 08, 2009 9:42:00 PM
Great posts, Editrix. This is indeed a subject not very touched.
Monday, June 08, 2009 11:38:00 PM
I'm not at all surprised at the extent of the Nazi link to Islam, but I am aghast that the first time I heard of it was on this blog. I thought I'd read about every gonzo pseudo-science, occultist fantasy, and bizarre example of cross-Aryan" hook-up (Tibetan monks in Berlin? WTF?) connected with the Third Reich, and here is one of the most obvious, one tha should have been expected, and it's been swept under the rug for over 60 years.
Song stuck in head for the evening: "How Long Has This Been Going On?"
Tuesday, June 09, 2009 12:07:00 AM
Editrix -- I don't think you've ever come across as obsessed or self-hating that I can tell.
Revere -- there have been a few of these put up here (not by me). Not sure how Pasto et al may have labeled them but I know there's been more than this if you're inclined to go through the archives.
Tuesday, June 09, 2009 12:14:00 AM
Editrix,
Great post. For some reason I don't remember this post from when it was originally posted.
I must have been out that day.
By the way, you say: " I have the problem with Americans that they either use it too liberally (like Charles Johnson of LGF) or that they throw a hearty "He was a patriot" after every dead Nazi towards hell, as it happened, for example, with VDare and Jörg Haider. If you go to the middle sidebar of my blog, there are two items, "The Pro-Köln-Dustup" and "More Things Americans Don't Seem to Twig" where I have vented my frustration. Basically, who rubs shoulders with Islamic despots, like Haider with Saddam, has lost any claim to a "conservative" or "patriotic" world view. It is THE litmus-test."
I say: You da' man (that's American-speak for, YOU ARE GREAT!) Thanks for giving the sane European view here.
Too many of the idiots in the anti-Jihad blogosphere are either of the Charles Johnson ilk, or the VDare/"it's ok to make common cause with racists, just like we made common cause with Stalin" ilk.
I'm so tired of those two types - even though they are seemingly polar opposites, they are clearly just as stupid as one another when it comes to naming types. And, let's be frank, naming things is the beginning of having intellectual understanding, which means, it is the beginning of fighting back.
Either mistake will kill us.
But, you are making the point very clearly. Thanks.
Tuesday, June 09, 2009 12:55:00 AM
By the way, another important point to note is that Yasser Arafat's real name was al-Husseini, just like the Grand Mufti.
There are rumors, though not absolutely documented to my knowledge, that Arafat was the Grand Mufti's nephew.
Another thing I think is very important to note is that the name Arafat is taken from the Moutain of Arafat which is visited on the last part of the Hajj (if one is using the traditional path to Mecca).
I believe Arafat named himself that name because he saw himself as a kind of Moses character leading his people to the promised land.
In case anyone does not remember the Biblical history, Moses looked down upon the Promised land from a mountain in the final days of his life, never to quite make it all the way there.
It seems the idiot Islamofascists see the destruction of the Judaic Israel as being equivalent of the reaching of the Promised Land.
Now, you can take this with a grain of salt, because as far as I know I am the only person to have come up with this theory.
Tuesday, June 09, 2009 1:00:00 AM
Here's some information on Yasser Arafat's real name and apparent familial identity:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yasser_Arafat
http://www.masada2000.org/Arafat-Husseini.html
Here's some info on Mt. Arafat:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Arafat
Mount Arafat or Mount Arafah (Arabic: جبل عرفات; transliterated Jabal 'Arafat) is a granite hill east of Mecca. It is also known as the Mount of Mercy (Jabal ar-Rahmah). The hill is the place Muslims believe Muhammad delivered the Farewell Sermon to the Muslims who had accompanied him for the Hajj towards the end of his life. It reaches about 70 m in height.
The level area surrounding the hill is called the Plain of Arafat. The term Mount Arafat is sometimes applied to this entire area. It is an important place in Islam because during the Hajj, pilgrims spend the afternoon there on the ninth day of Dhu al-Hijjah (ذو الحجة). Failure to be present in the plain of Arafat on the required day invalidates the pilgrimage. Many pilgrims stay here all night in vigil.[1]
After Arafat, pilgrims of the Hajj head to Muzdalifa.
Tuesday, June 09, 2009 1:03:00 AM
And, here is info on the final days of Moses' life:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=5&chapter=34&version=31
Deuteronomy 34
The Death of Moses
1 Then Moses climbed Mount Nebo from the plains of Moab to the top of Pisgah, across from Jericho. There the LORD showed him the whole land—from Gilead to Dan, 2 all of Naphtali, the territory of Ephraim and Manasseh, all the land of Judah as far as the western sea, [a] 3 the Negev and the whole region from the Valley of Jericho, the City of Palms, as far as Zoar. 4 Then the LORD said to him, "This is the land I promised on oath to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob when I said, 'I will give it to your descendants.' I have let you see it with your eyes, but you will not cross over into it."
5 And Moses the servant of the LORD died there in Moab, as the LORD had said. 6 He buried him [b] in Moab, in the valley opposite Beth Peor, but to this day no one knows where his grave is.
Tuesday, June 09, 2009 1:06:00 AM
"Great post. For some reason I don't remember this post from when it was originally posted."
I don't think it was ever posted here. Maybe I wasn't a member if IBA then or I simply forgot to cross-post it. The video with my translation definitely was.
I am writing for years now about the Muslim-Nazi connection. The problem is, people are not interested. A Google search for Muslim+Nazi+connection renders 622.000 hits, among them some of the sources I used. Virtually none of the visitors of my blog come there via an Internet search for that specific topic.
What you are saying about Arafat confirms that the ME conflict is NOT a secular conflict about land, but a religious one.
One remark about the German "patriotism" and the "self-hatred" thing: Doesn't every single D-Day- or 8th of May '45 memorial show how impossible it is to be a German patriot (at least in the conventional sense)? I challenge all the world to find ONE declared German (or Austrian) patriot who is NOT a raving anti-American, an "anti-Zionist" (because it has come somewhat out of fashion to be a declared antisemite), a supporter of Hamas and moved to tears about the circumstances in Gaza, something for which Israel bears responsibility. Why? BECAUSE THEY LOGICALLY DEFINE THEMSELVES THAT WAY!
Why on why do they still NOT invite the German Bundespräsident to co-celebrate D-Day and to show HIS patriotism there? That are the same people who call ME a "self-hating German". Mind you, personal insults go "past my arse" (as we say in German). It is the gross misconception behind it that makes me mad as hell.
Tuesday, June 09, 2009 10:12:00 AM
It just occurred to me: Maybe the Americans hate to hate the Germans because of that peculiar admiration I have discussed here.
Tuesday, June 09, 2009 10:42:00 AM
Another, and different, aspect: By the German "anti-German left", the Mufti is taken as proof that the Muslims "learned" antisemitism from the Nazis. If you google for Bostom+Küntzel you will find interesting information.
The "anti-German left" is such a typical German phenomenon that it's bordering on the impossible to explain what they are. Let me just say that hatred for Israel, the über-Jew and America, the ersatz-Jew is so entrenched in the German left that a leftist movement had to define itself as "anti-German" to be able to express support for Israel and America. Two of their less palatable slogans are: "No Tears for Krauts" and "Bomber Harris Do It Again". While I understand the spirit behind it, namely to protest the incessant German whining about the consequences of a war they've started themselves, I reject the form of expression.
Tuesday, June 09, 2009 11:06:00 AM
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Tuesday, June 09, 2009 12:52:00 PM
Editrix,
Well, I have also written on the Muslim-Nazi connection, and I have found the same lack of interest.
However, I think it is very important, and really ought to be brought up again and again, so I'm glad you reposted these here.
You say: "The "anti-German left" is such a typical German phenomenon that it's bordering on the impossible to explain what they are. Let me just say that hatred for Israel, the über-Jew and America, the ersatz-Jew is so entrenched in the German left that a leftist movement had to define itself as "anti-German" to be able to express support for Israel and America. Two of their less palatable slogans are: "No Tears for Krauts" and "Bomber Harris Do It Again". While I understand the spirit behind it, namely to protest the incessant German whining about the consequences of a war they've started themselves, I reject the form of expression."
I say: I don't quite understand. I think I must be missing some cultural information. I understand that, if they blame their Nazism on Islamic influence, then you've got a problem. is that your objection?
Tuesday, June 09, 2009 1:37:00 PM
"I say: I don't quite understand. I think I must be missing some cultural information. I understand that, if they blame their Nazism on Islamic influence, then you've got a problem. is that your objection?"
No, it's the other way round and I said so: They say (more or less) that the innocent Muslims learned their antisemitism from the Nazis. They simply ignore that Muslim antisemitism is documented in the Koran already.
Tuesday, June 09, 2009 1:46:00 PM
It seems to me it is fine to be a Patriotic German, as long as one's Patriotism revolves around the great things Germany has contributed to the world. Germans are, obviously, tremendously industrious, creative, and meticulous. German artists and philosophers have added much. One may not agree with Kant, Hegel, or Nietzsche, but one has to admit they hit upon ideas which have changed the world.
And, of course, there's Goethe and Beethoven.
Yes, I think Germans have much to be proud of.
Here in America, we have people who run around with Southern Rebel flags. It seems to me these guys can't get over the Civil War. That is probably close to the same phenomenon you are irritated with in the current wave of German Patriotism.
Maybe part of the problem is that Germany, like Islam, defines itself too much by it's glory days on the battlefield.
American Patriotism does not generally revolve around military victories. We do have Patriotic Holidays like Memorial Day on which we honor those who have given their lives in military service to ensure Freedom for the rest of us. And, the Fourth of July is, obviously a Patriotic celebration of our Declaration of Independence, an Independence which was won through a bloody Revolution, but American Patriotism is just as likely to be of the "Mom and Apple Pie variety. We are just as likely to be proud of our rock n' roll, our ability and inclination to party, our big cars, our weekend trips to the river, our Country music, our Jazz music, our vast land ( and the men to equal our mountains), Disneyland, etc.
I would imagine Germans are proud of such things as well as Americans.
Tuesday, June 09, 2009 1:54:00 PM
Editrix,
So, in their anti-Patriotism, they are denying the reality of Islamic anti-Semitism.
Tuesday, June 09, 2009 1:55:00 PM
Editrix,
Sorry to be thick, but on which side of the Kuntzel/Bostom argument do you fall?
Tuesday, June 09, 2009 2:05:00 PM
My opinion is, Kuntzel has a very good point here:
"It is true and well known that the separation from and hatred of the Jews began with Muhammad’s activities in Medina and is a constitutive element of Islam. Anti-Judaism as laid down in the Koran, however, is not the same as antisemitism as laid down in “The Protocols of the Elders of Zion“. Mediaeval Jew-hatred considered everything Jewish to be evil. Modern antisemitism, on the other hand, deems all “evil” to be Jewish. In the former case the Jew could save his life through acceptance of the rules of dhimmitude or conversion to Christianity (or Islam). In the latter case, what is involved is not just oppression or conversion, but an irrational belief that the salvation of the world depends on the destruction of the Jews. "
It seems to me that distinction is important and GENERALLY true.
However, it is also true that the idea that killing the Jews will lead to world peace is in the Koran. That's the essence of the "Stone and Tree" verse:
"The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say, 'O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him.'"
Tuesday, June 09, 2009 2:09:00 PM
Oh, I see Kuntzel mentions that verse, and say it "closest to anticipating the rhetoric of modern antisemitism and for this very reason appears in the 1988 Hamas Charter"
And, by the way, I find that verse is from the Hadith, not the Koran.
I knew that a long time ago, but had forgotten. Stupid mistake on my part.
Tuesday, June 09, 2009 2:12:00 PM
"So, in their anti-Patriotism, they are denying the reality of Islamic anti-Semitism."
Yes, that is so. At least of Islamic antisemitism sui generis. I am, of course, on Bostom's side.
As for patriotism, I think patriotism doesn't allow for much relativation. Your Civil War can by no means be compared to the Holocaust or the war guilt. There ARE different ways to see it. Of course I am aware of the great cultural achievements, Goethe, Schiller, Bach, Mozart, Beethoven and God knows what and who else. They are the peerless achievenemnt of my people. I am, however, not "proud" of them. They, like my blue eyes or my shoe size, happened to me. They are nothing I achieved. But that is my personal idiosyncrasy and it has nothing to do with self-hatred. I never understood how one can be proud of things one hasn't achieved oneself. But let's say I love them, which is true and maybe enough for patriotism. But what will the children of the Jewish victims of my people say? What would the children of those American soldiers who were killed in the war Germany started say if we were running around, bandying about German flags and telling everybody how proud we are? IF there is any "patriotism" possible, it would have to be one of a very, very quiet kind.
Somehow, "quiet" and "patriotism" don't seem to go together. There is no logical reason for that. It just seems to be that way.
Tuesday, June 09, 2009 2:47:00 PM
I see your point. Especially the point about being proud of something one did not accomplish themselves.
But, I think Patriotism is a respect for tradition, not pride so much. The pride comes from participating in the tradition, even if it is in small ways like baking an apple pie and sitting with your family and eating it. Or, like going to a Memorial Day celebration and listening to the Vets speak of their memories of those who gave their lives, and getting a feeling of being part of something larger than oneself.
to me that is Patriotism. Pride might be a misused word. Or perhaps I should say, it is an accurate word, but it is only a small part of the whole that is Patriotism.
Does American Patriotism bother you?
Tuesday, June 09, 2009 2:53:00 PM
"Does American Patriotism bother you?"
Not at all, the more as America is a "self-made" nation, and I said that my inability to feel pride is an idiosyncrasy. I never understood people who are proud of their good looks either. It's a gift from God and something to be humble about.
I think however, that a lot of Germans (the wannabe-patriots, you know) begrudge you your uninhibited enjoyment in being what you are.
Tuesday, June 09, 2009 3:18:00 PM
Germany is only not a self-made nation to the extent that it functions by instinct rather than ideas.
It is an instinct to hunt down and kill all those who are not of the tribe.
When Germany has behaved by it's instincts, it has been like the Muslim world, a land of no progress.
However, it seems to me that it is obvious that Germany has also contributed much to the progress of the world. Therefore, it seems obvious that the German people have functioned on ideas for much of their history.
I think Germany has much to be proud of. I do understand your points about humility and quiet patriotism. It would seem that people ought to be humbled by their history, not merely exalted. Exaltation should only be felt to the point that one is actually participating in the tradition.
Tuesday, June 09, 2009 3:27:00 PM
Wasn't it Churchill who said something to the effect that one either has the Hun at one's feet or at one's throat? There is a lot of truth in it.
"Germany is only not a self-made nation to the extent that it functions by instinct rather than ideas."
No. Germany is an "organic" mixture of Teutonic tribes who lived there since time immemorial and just got a nice shakeup during the migration period. People and political structures were, for better or worse, "organically" grown. America is a (as I understand it) young, self-made country where people from all over Europe came to escape oppression and formed something entirely new out of the wilderness. That is something entirely different.
"It is an instinct to hunt down and kill all those who are not of the tribe."
There is no German tradition whatsoever to kill those who are not "of the tribe". Moreover, there IS NO "German" tribe. Come over here and see all the different tribes, ethnicities, landcapes, traditions, houses, churches, food, music, faces (all German yet all so different) as long as they still exist. See the unique richness and multitude within such a small country.
Preussen, the entity the allies destroyed after WWII because they thought "Prussian militarism" was responsible for the Nazis when the Nazis had crawled out of the Bavarian beer cellars and not from the Prussian barrack squares (and believe me that I, as a Westphalian Catholic, do not easily admit it), was enlightened and progressive when the rest of Europe was still wallowing in an absolutist quagmire. Gneisenau, Scharnhorst and Clausewitz invented the modern army and are still taught at the military academies of the world, including, I am sure, West Point. Enlightened Prussia was the harbour for the prosecuted Huguenots of France. Frederick Wilhelm, The "Great Elector" welcomed the Jewish refugees from Vienna in the 17th century in Prussia.
Germany was never any more bigoted or racist than any other country, probably even less so. Not even the Nazis followed an eliminatory policy regarding the few black German citizens who owed their existence to the minor German efforts at colonialism. Even the "Rhineland bastards" were "just" sterilized. Jesse Owens was well received at the Olympic Games 1936 by the German hosts and the lie that Hitler refused to shake his hand was … well, a politically correct lie.
I have always said that. I have said, too, that antisemitism is a phenomenon totally different from racism. What caused (and still causes) that deeply-rooted eliminatory German antisemitism (Yes Epa, Goldhagen was right!) is a different question. But there IS NO German "instinct to hunt down and kill all those who are not of the tribe".
Off my soapbox now.
Tuesday, June 09, 2009 9:14:00 PM
There is no eliminatory war in German/Prussian history before WWII. Arminius stopped Roman progress, the German/Austrian/Polish tribes stopped the Turks at Vienna, Prussia and other German nations fought a desperate War of Liberation against Napoleonic France. Germany, and specifically Prussia, is/was a country without natural borders, so that a strong army was always a necessity rather than an expensive hobby of a megalomaniac monarch. The 30-year-war was about religion and the many Austro-Prussian wars were about military, political and economic predominance within the German sphere. None of them had been eliminatory and none had anything whatsoever to do with race or "tribes".
Just to do "us" justice!
Tuesday, June 09, 2009 9:46:00 PM